#344: The 6 Types of Ownable Ideas (And How to Find Yours) with Katelyn Bourgoin, Founder of Unignorable

#344 | Dave sits down with Katelyn Bourgoin, founder of Unignorable, to talk about the one strategic move most B2B marketers overlook: owning an idea so tied to you that it sounds like an echo coming from anyone else. Katelyn breaks down the six types of ownable ideas, from coined categories to named problems to X vs. Y frameworks, and walks through how to find the central argument your brand should be built on. They also get into why category creation isn't always the answer, what made "conversational marketing" work at Drift, and why ownable ideas matter more now than ever.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - - Intro and Dave recaps the Exit Five Marketing Leadership Retreat
  
• (03:27) - - Katelyn introduces the concept of ownable ideas
  
• (07:58) - - Katelyn's background: failed startup, buyer psychology, and finding her niche
  
• (10:45) - - What an ownable idea actually is (and why it's not category creation)
  
• (13:00) - - The 6 types of ownable ideas with examples
  
• (18:39) - - How to find your central argument (the webinar software example)
  
• (21:20) - - Katelyn breaks down Dave's own central argument back to him
  
• (26:48) - - The chocolate covered almond analogy
  
• (28:49) - - How Dave extracted the ownable idea at Drift
  
• (30:12) - - Why the founder has to own marketing (and what to do if they don't)

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Dave Gerhardt [0:00:01]: You're listening to the Dave Gerhardt.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:02]: This week, I sat down with Katelyn Bourgoin.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:19]: And she's a serial entrepreneur buyer psychology expert founder of normal an agency that helps founders find the one idea that they'll be known for.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:26]: This was a really fun conversation.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:28]: We got to revisit some of my path as a marker and we went deep on this concept of creating your own idea, not really a positioning framework, not category creation, but the actual idea that becomes so tied to you that it sounds like in echo coming from anybody else.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:43]: So an example would be at drift we call it conversational marketing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:46]: Katelyn said, hey.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:47]: When you think of James clear, what do you think of?

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:49]: I said atomic habits.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:50]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:50]: We talked about a bunch of examples of creating your own idea on this podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:55]: And I think it's something that more companies need now than ever.

Dave Gerhardt [0:00:58]: Hey, if Ai is gonna comm out everything else, the last great thing that we have is our story and our brand and I really like this framing of creating your own idea.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:07]: So if you need help with positioning storytelling Here is a great conversation with Caitlyn Burg.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:12]: When you say how was our event?

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:15]: Is that what was question.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:01:16]: Got back from the event.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:01:17]: It looked amazing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:18]: It was amazing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:19]: I was really nervous about doing it.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:21]: I didn't wanna do this event.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:22]: This was Dan's idea, but I never told him that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:25]: Until just now.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:26]: And it was awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:28]: They pulled it off.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:29]: Like, we have one big event in September, and I didn't really have an appetite to do more because it's very stressful and it's a lot of work.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:35]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:36]: And so we kinda did this one in the response initially was slow and then We're were halfway in the January and the tickets were slow and then we also found it that it was a heavy week of, like, people's kids had school break.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:47]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:47]: But it ended up selling.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:49]: I think a hundred was, like, the right amount, and it was awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:52]: It was really, really, really fun.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:54]: The N ups was eighty eight, which is a amazing...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:01:56]: Anything thing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:01:58]: The only two, like, negative d, the negative response that we got were two people who didn't pay for tickets.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:03]: They were invited for free.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:04]: So it's like,

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:07]: you appreciate what you pay for.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:09]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:09]: For sure.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:10]: But you'll appreciate this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:11]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:11]: So, like, the big hook for this one was really just like this bet that people really wanna peer group, especially if you're, you know, CMO of a larger company, You feel like you can't really share stuff online.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:21]: You spend all your day talking to Ai and ChatGPT.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:23]: And the whole value prop was, like, their peer group.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:26]: So we did, like, application only.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:27]: You had to be currently in house running a marketing team at a company over a certain revenue stage.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:32]: And Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:34]: It was painful because some people also didn't like that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:35]: But the people that were there there were like this was the best event I've ever been to because I felt like everyone that was in this room was my peer.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:43]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:43]: We could be hanging out.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:44]: The pool having a conversation having lunch and so it was like, it just reinforced like that bet with the positioning.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:50]: I love that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:50]: And I mean, you are that audience?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:52]: You were that audience several times over.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:02:54]: Like, how many times did you ever get to do something like this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:58]: They would be rare.

Dave Gerhardt [0:02:59]: I can remember going to an event like Saas stir as an example when I was like, a VP marketing and you happen to get invited to someone's one's lunch.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:06]: And the lunch is awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:08]: It's almost like having friends who are, like, parents are going through the same stage of life that you are.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:13]: It's just so nice to be able to relate and that we just...

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:16]: The niche happens to be, like, B2B marketing, but it's really like, the cross section of people that are just there like, just kinda bitch and invent and, you know, you know, it's it feels really good.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:26]: It's really.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:28]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:28]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:28]: And it's nice not to have to settle that context up.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:30]: Because I think that's one of the biggest challenges when it comes to, like, any entrepreneurs pings.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:35]: It's like, yeah, You can get them in the room and like, maybe they're, like, running different types of companies and they're in different industries.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:40]: But they're all at the same vibrant level and it's, like, yeah, but there's so much context.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:44]: That it doesn't need to be said.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:03:46]: It just allows us for, like, real talk so much faster.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:50]: Well, like, even if you don't have an answer, you feel like you're talking to someone who...

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:53]: Alright.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:54]: I'm not alone in going through this thing in my business.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:56]: Anyway, I'm excited to have you on, Kayla.

Dave Gerhardt [0:03:58]: Do you say your last name?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:00]: We're going.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:01]:Katelyn Bourgoingoing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:01]: I don't know.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:02]: It's, like, ships passing the night multiple times.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:05]: I've tried to have you on and finally, Aaron reached out, and we got you on.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:08]: So I'm really excited to see you in the Linkedin comments, but Who the heck are you?

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:12]: Who are you?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:13]: I love that you're asking me this question, and I feel like the first time you invited me on the show, my answer would been very different.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:17]: So I'll kind of explain what is I do.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:20]: But before I do, I kinda wanna demonstrate it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:22]: So let me ask you a question.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:23]: When I say Atomic Habits, who comes to mind for you.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:28]: James Clear.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:29]: Right.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:29]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:29]: What about when I say, start with why.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:33]: Simon Cy.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:34]: Mh.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:35]: Okay.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:35]: Last one.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:36]: Wait.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:36]: Also, I know these because I'm really smart and well red.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:38]: Obviously.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:39]: These are very hard and you were killing it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:41]: Last one boring businesses.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:43]: Is there anybody to kind leaps out when you you're boring them.

Dave Gerhardt [0:04:46]: Cody Sanchez.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:47]: Alright.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:47]: So yes, you were incredibly smart.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:50]: I wonder for our listeners.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:51]: I would wage your a bet that most people are three for three.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:54]: And that's because these people are idea owners.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:58]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:04:58]: I believe that idea ownership is really, like, the biggest strategic advantage entrepreneurs right now.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:03]: And it's always been true.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:05]: You watched it you've done it inside of companies.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:07]: Like, I think it's more true than ever now.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:10]: And so all of whom we wanna reach with other message that are super overwhelmed, and we need to be, like, really crystal clear, like, what spot we wanna own in their brain and how we want them to think of us.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:21]: And so that's what I'm doing today.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:24]: So I've kind of made some changes from where some of your listeners might know me from kuwait previous company while we buy.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:29]: But now I'm going all in on and is the own ideas agency.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:34]: So, like, we help these big brain experts dis distilled their best thinking.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:05:38]: Into one idea that makes them impossible to ignore.

Dave Gerhardt [0:05:43]: Awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [0:05:43]: But, like, your background, you kind circle around a couple of...

Dave Gerhardt [0:05:47]: So, like, if we looked at your because I was just going through the nose from Aaron and it was she's kinda like, well, you know, her background not really in B2B marketing and Like no, but that's actually why I want you to come on because.

Dave Gerhardt [0:05:58]: Our audience is in is B2B marketers.

Dave Gerhardt [0:06:01]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:06:01]: But your...

Dave Gerhardt [0:06:02]: All of your stuff is about, like, psychology Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:06:05]: Understanding how people make decisions.

Dave Gerhardt [0:06:07]: This power of naming things How did you get to be that person in marketing versus, like, why aren't you, like, the Seo person.

Dave Gerhardt [0:06:14]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:15]: Well, it's funny You asked that because, like, I used to very much be the B2B marketing person.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:18]: So previously, if I wanna do, like, a little bit, like, I'll a very abbreviated background.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:23]: Started off as an agency owner and was working with a whole bunch of different clients of, like, wanted to kind of do gorilla marketing, but really I would take anyone who would pay.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:32]: And but, you know, it worked out well.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:34]: That's a big clients like, Target and holiday and and I got the big idea.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:37]: I was like, I don't wanna sell time for money anymore.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:39]: I'm gonna do something different.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:41]: And at the time, this is twenty thirteen.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:43]: I was like, but courses are too crazy.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:45]: Like, it's too congested.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:46]: There's no space there.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:47]: I'm like, I'm gonna do a techs start how hard could that be?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:50]: Now I'm a non tactical founder and this is twenty thirteen.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:53]: Let's just say it was really fucking hard.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:06:55]: But went off raised like Bc funding, built what Forbes said was over the next linkedin for women, failed miserably.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:01]: It did not work.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:03]: Went bankrupt, and came out a, and I was like, licking my wounds and, like, trying to figure out what I was interview when I grew up.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:08]: And I was lucky and that our lead investor at a portfolio of companies, mostly led by, like, technical brilliant founders.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:15]: And I would go and they're, like, we need them to be better at marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:19]: And, like, they're good at product or bad at marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:22]: You were, like, bad at product, but you're good at marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:24]: I'm like, I know.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:25]: Thanks for coming it in.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:26]: But, yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:27]: And so I went and I sat down with all these genius people.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:29]: And I would ask them the question that we care about as marketers, which is, like, tell me about your audience.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:33]: Who are your customers.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:34]: And I was shocked how often I couldn't get a good answer out of them.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:39]: Like, they would be competing with, like, they're like, oh, we go through this audience, but also this one, And one time a founder looks me in the I and he goes, our audience are B2B businesses with anywhere between ten and five hundred employees who sell online.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:52]: And, like, he was, like, thinking, like, oh, I nailed it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:55]: Like, I know them so well.

Dave Gerhardt [0:07:57]: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:07:57]: Right.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:07:59]: So, like, everyone...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:00]: Okay.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:01]: And that led me to realize.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:02]: I was like, oh, there's just real huge pain point in that people need to better understand their customers.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:06]: And to do that, they need to do customer research.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:10]: And I'm gonna build a prototype service agency all around helping B Saas companies do customer research.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:15]: Guess what I learned.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:16]: B Saas companies do not care about customer research.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:20]: But they did care about my little newsletter that I started off as the pipeline builder for my research agency, which was all about behavioral science and marketing and buyers.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:30]: And so that was what kind of like, the first own idea for me was I became known is like, the buyer psychology person.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:38]: And saw the impact of that in my own business, and realized through the work I did with building the original une challenge with the team at demand I was like, oh, this is where I wanna live.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:49]: Like this is the space I'm excited about.

Dave Gerhardt [0:08:51]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:08:51]: Let's do today's episode with a lens towards.

Dave Gerhardt [0:08:54]: I wanna really focus on let's go deep on this topic of an own idea.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:08:59]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:00]: And the audience for this is people who some founders listen to this podcast, but I would say the majority are, like, I'm doing marketing at a company.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:09]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:10]: And so the lens will be, like, I wanna improve the way we tell our story.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:16]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:16]: And this stuff that we learn from Caitlyn is gonna help us do that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:20]: Okay?

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:20]: So first, you've kinda already answered this, but, like, let's just set the stage for an notable idea is...

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:26]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:26]: You talked about book titles.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:28]: Is there more than that?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:30]: Oh, yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:30]: So, like, I see an idea is, like, it's a strategic territory that you can claim and become known for.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:35]: So it's that concept that becomes, like, so identified with you.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:39]: That it sounds like an echo coming from anybody else.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:09:41]: So in a lot of time...

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:42]: The way, I I like this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:43]: The reason why I like this is because I think this is related to positioning, storytelling, people talk about category creation, but.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:51]: Break something down that's just really simple.

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:53]: It's not some official, you know, complex name?

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:57]: It's...

Dave Gerhardt [0:09:57]: Not you're not trying to do some conclusion, like, what is your own idea?

Dave Gerhardt [0:10:01]: I love when people can simplify things that way.

Dave Gerhardt [0:10:03]: So, yes.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:04]: I think people need to be communicating with that way too.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:06]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:06]: Like, one of the things from behavioral science and it's not just a behavioral science thing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:09]: Like, there's two sides of the brain that we were talking to.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:13]: And one of them you have to earn time with, and that's the one that actually takes time to process your message.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:18]: Most of the time, you have to have to get it right away.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:21]: And if they don't get it right away, they're not gonna pause, lean in, pay more attention.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:24]: So I think so often, we try to, like, create these, like, really clever categories and it's, like, this is, like, distinct, like, fancy and exciting.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:30]: And I feel like the reason that own ideas aren't just about categories.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:34]: A category is one type of own idea.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:37]: Oftentimes, you don't need to create a new category.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:40]: Like...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:40]: I'm like, I'm not a believer and, like, category creation is always the answer.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:44]: I think it can be the answer.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:45]: And and I've seen you and other brilliant marketers help teams do it really freaking well.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:50]: But it's not always answer.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:10:52]: But there's other ways that founders can go off and become known and create a conversation in their space beyond a category.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:01]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:01]: So you have six there's six type of own ideas.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:04]: Can we either own them each?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:05]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:05]: So I started bring this access Was thinking, like, how do we actually make this really actionable for folks that they get it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:10]: And, like, yes, a category is one of them.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:12]: So, you know, a category that's, like, the new type of solution or markets space that you're gonna be the obvious leader and.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:18]: So you think about what your work you did a drift.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:20]: It was the conversational marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:22]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:22]: That was a new category.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:23]: From a person who's, like, a thought leader perspective, A minute and a tip.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:27]: I don't if ever had her on the pod, but she's brilliant.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:29]: And like, He's created, like, zero click Click content.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:32]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:33]: That's for category.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:34]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:34]: Sure.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:35]: That's just one type.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:36]: Another thing even would become I'm known for are coined problems.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:39]: So there's examples of this, like, Seth Golden has the dip, Andrew Chen has the log shitty clicks.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:46]: Click throughs.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:46]: Oh, yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:46]: These are really good.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:47]: I'll give a podcast listener and Exit Five member shout of Brendan Hufford.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:51]: He has one that he talks about that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:11:52]: But he's named Check Box Marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:55]: I love that for him.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:55]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:56]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:11:56]: And Suddenly, he puts a name to something and as marketers were, like, that's what I've been doing and why...

Dave Gerhardt [0:12:02]: No.

Dave Gerhardt [0:12:02]: Problem like, when people try to do it for their, like, software companies, it becomes, like, the first Ai native purpose built solution for Hvac contractors and it doesn't work the same.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:15]: Nobody it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:16]: And so, like, this is a thing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:17]: I feel like from a company perspective, like, yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:19]: Categories an obvious one, but it doesn't always need to be the one.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:22]: Think about, like, it this isn't B2B, but, like, think about of my favorite samples of a coin problem is for breeze.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:26]: They had nose blindness.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:28]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:29]: Lightning it's like people didn't realize that their house stun, so they educated them by creating a problem, nose blindness and sales spiked.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:37]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:38]: People like, oh my god.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:39]: I do have pets.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:40]: I do have kids that play sports.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:41]: My house probably does stink and I'm just nose love stupid it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:44]: Like it's such a great way of taking something that exists in existing category.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:49]: And showing the problem.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:12:51]: I think that, you know, Chris Walker did this so well when he talked to about the attribution gap, and he basically created a assault against attribution, and, like, he's, like dark social is like, the answer.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:01]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:01]: Like, you don't know what's actually happening.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:03]: It's almost like, sometimes we obsessed too much over, like, the name for it and where it's gonna fit in g two and how Ga might think about it in, like, the analyst name versus like, what sounds like specifically when you said Chris, and you said the word, like, assaulting this category.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:19]: It's like, he was going after attribution.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:22]: And so it's like, oh, yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:23]: It's like, named the problem.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:24]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:25]: It it doesn't have to be the, like, I remember drift as an example, we hated the name conversational marketing because it was, like, so literal.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:32]: We wanted something like cooler than that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:34]: You know?

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:35]: Mh.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:36]: When you were at draft.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:36]: I remember hearing conversation marketing and thinking it was really good.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:39]: But I remember you named an enemy, and it was, like, the form.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:42]: No forms.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:42]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:43]: And that was perfect.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:44]: We we not, like, probably the best target customer for drift at this point I'm like, officers doing consultant.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:49]: But hell if I didn't go on a call with your team and having the conversational for using.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:54]: Wait.

Dave Gerhardt [0:13:54]: Can we talk about why that worked?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:13:56]: It absolutely works because they at the end of the day, We need somebody to explain to us why the thing that we're doing isn't working in a way that we actually wanna buy into.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:03]: And so often, when people try to push their narrative down our throat, it's telling us that what we're doing is wrong, but not giving us an alternative, Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:13]: So you said it perfectly because we didn't want to alienate the people that we were trying to sell to.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:20]: And so the message wasn't, like, hey, dummy.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:23]: You're doing it wrong.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:24]: Like, do it our way.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:25]: So we, like, the whole story that we told was, like, It's not your fault.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:29]: It's the tools that you were given to do this and the form, we made the form of the enemy.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:33]: By the way, what's so funny is?

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:35]: To this day, I will say something, and someone would be like, well, you used the form for this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:40]: I'm like, that was one company ten years ago, I'm the head of marketing there.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:44]: You don't think I'm gonna be pumping the company's narrative.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:48]: And you all built that out and it f worked.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:50]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:50]: Like, you guys were an underdog.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:51]: You're coming in, you created, like, it was a beautiful display.

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:55]: What else?

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:55]: What are the other types?

Dave Gerhardt [0:14:56]: This is a fun topic for me so I'm being distracted.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:59]: Alright.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:14:59]: So we've got method or framework.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:01]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:01]: So when you think about, like, a method, a great example is, like, the story brand canvas, We've all

Dave Gerhardt [0:15:06]: calendar challenger sale.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:07]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:07]: Exactly.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:07]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:08]: Like, Yeah these are great ones they're particularly strong for, kind of, like, expert entrepreneurs, but absolutely works in it, like, selling tech two.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:16]: Then you've got, like, the identity label.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:18]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:18]: Like, Sean Ellis came with the growth hacker.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:20]: Let me tell you, when I startup up died I was trying to decide what Wanted to be when I grew up, there was a very long period of time where I was thinking I was gonna be a growth factor.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:28]: Ultimately it was not the right fit for me.

Dave Gerhardt [0:15:30]: Me too.

Dave Gerhardt [0:15:31]: Me too.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:32]: I realized it'd much rather be a storyteller, but, like, the identity label giving somebody, like, that thing that they can step into.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:39]: And then one that I think is really cool and it's fringe and there's not as many of them, but when it works but damn does it work is, like, what I call like, the x versus y.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:47]: So it's, like, creating, like, a this versus that distinction that changes how people think about their choices.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:52]: And that person I love who does this really well is like, Cal Newport.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:55]: He's got deep work versus shallow work.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:57]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:15:58]: You hear that and you're, like, wait.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:00]: What am I doing?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:01]: My hope Very work.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:03]: Oh, man.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:03]: That'd be done.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:04]: It's too much of it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:05]: But, like, immediately, it changes your thinking.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:08]: Immediately, you're, like, I want that other answer.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:10]: And these are the types of ideas.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:13]: That I think when you really nail it, this is the type of thing that can make a career.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:18]: This is the kind of thing that can make a company, but it's really hard to do.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:22]: Like, like, I let's say, I'm listening this,

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:24]: and I...

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:24]: My company is, like, we make webinar software.

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:28]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:29]: There's a million other vendors out there.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:32]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:33]: We charge a little bit more than everybody else, but it's really good, but it's not different.

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:38]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:39]: It's like, where would you start?

Dave Gerhardt [0:16:40]: Like, obviously, it's so high level, but...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:42]: Yep.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:42]: So here's where I would start because this isn't the that I've been trying to grapple it's like, ultimately, like, when I went into doing this work.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:48]: Like I.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:48]: So I ran the child with the team at demand curve, nineteen hundred entrepreneurs went through it, trying to build an personal brand.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:54]: The last exercise was always identify your big idea.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:16:58]: And it was the thing that was the hardest and the ones that figured it out, it was the thing that was the catalyst.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:03]: And I saw was, like, this is actually what it's all about.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:05]: All the other stuff that we talked about in that program thirty days.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:08]: I, like, that shit was nice.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:09]: This is the piece that actually matters the most, and can this actually be broken down and taught in a way that creates impact?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:17]: I don't freaking though.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:18]: Because it seems like usually when happens there's a bit of magic involved.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:21]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:17:22]: Question, is it hard because in order to have a good one, you have to, like, say no to certain things or have a differentiated point of view about a who or not for.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:31]: Mh.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:31]: It's about up saying to know the thousand good ideas and trying to own a good one.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:35]: But here's the thing Like, so when I went to started doing this works, I started doing some work with, like, our beta clients.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:39]: I've only, like, I'm very new to this.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:41]: I'm still learning so much.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:42]: There's, like, you might talk me in a year and I'll have a completely different opinion.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:45]: But, like, at this stage, what I found is, like, after, like digging through, trying to do this with five different entrepreneurs relying on gut intuition judgment, which is, like, not rep, like, you can't reproduce that, like, in a meaningful way.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:17:57]: I was, like, I had this, Aha moment in the fifth one what I was running, and I realized the thing that connects it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:04]: The thing you need to do first is you need to help people basically identify their central argument that their own ideas is built off of.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:12]: So going back to your webinar example.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:14]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:14]: Why in the world would these founders knowing how competitive than webinar spaces, knowing that there's a million different solutions out there.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:20]: Why would they actually decide to get into that game?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:23]: There's probably some bet that they made.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:26]: Some belief that they have about what's wrong with the other solutions about what the market's deserves and isn't getting that was foundational to them deciding to go into that game.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:37]: And what you need to do is you need to dig in and you need to find that, but you don't just find it and asking the founders, because that's what.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:42]: The founders aren't gonna have all the right answer?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:45]: You need to also map it to what the market wants and what they need to hear.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:50]: So it's like, what is the founder saying?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:51]: What does the market wanna hear?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:53]: What's other people saying in the landscape?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:56]: That we can avoid so that there's white space.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:18:59]: That's the part that makes it hard.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:01]: But if you figure out that central argument, you can, like, build everything on top of it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:05]: So, like, I think about you, and I was chatting with Aaron on your team and then prep for this.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:10]: And, like, I was like, what's Dave central argument?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:13]: Because, like, I've been following you for a long time, and I love the work that you do.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:16]: And there's a few that are, like, qualifier and I'm like, but I think the thing that for me, I remember what he said this Was, like, one of those, like, mind blow moments, and I feel like it's a thread that runs through so much about you and you can tell me straight up if I'm completely wrong about this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:19:30]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:30]: I think that the central argument for you is that B2B company should act like media companies.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:35]: Like, they should pay attention to what's happening outside of B2B, they should put a face in front of you that you actually care about and invest with, like, a charming character that you can, like buy into.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:46]: They should think about entertaining and not just trying, like, ram specs down your throat.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:19:51]: Like, I feel like that's something that when I think of Dave, like, that feels like it's keen with the work you do When you say that that's true?

Dave Gerhardt [0:19:58]: I would take that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:19:59]: Sure.

Dave Gerhardt [0:19:59]: I can't say that I set out intentionally to do that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:03]: But I think if I was that or I were, like, weave the things now, and I think if I were gonna go start a new company and build a product.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:11]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:11]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:12]: We would absolutely trade on that story and use that to tell that story.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:15]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:16]: It's like, you know, Zoom, the founder of Zoom Eric Yuan yuan, he was like, I forget exactly what it was, but he was like, the lead engineer at Webex.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:26]: And it's like when Zoom came out, everybody had known what video conferencing was.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:30]: It was just, like, he was probably at the top of his game and wanted to spin out his own thing, and he made his own thing, and that's the reason why you should...

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:37]: They made it better faster because the engineer was proven.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:40]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:41]: Was like, In the drift story.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:42]: It was like, hey, these guys were part of the founders Drift were integral part of building the product at Hubspot.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:48]: And so therefore, they're the perfect guys to rewrite the playbook because they wrote the original one.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:52]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:52]: And it's like, you look in the pantry.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:54]: My kids snacks.

Dave Gerhardt [0:20:55]: It's always, like, healthy granola, you know Caitlyn was a mom who fed up with feeding her kids, you know, sugary ingredients.

Dave Gerhardt [0:21:02]: So she created blah, right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:21:03]: Like that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:21:04]: But I think people listening this like, well, I hear you, but, like, I work for this, like, you know, cybersecurity company or I work for, you know, manufacturing company and, you know, Cleveland.

Dave Gerhardt [0:21:14]: It's...

Dave Gerhardt [0:21:14]: That doesn't work for me Caitlyn.

Dave Gerhardt [0:21:15]: Mh.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:17]: So here's what I say to them.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:17]: It's that, like, it is really hard to do, but I think it's either gonna happen in one of two ways.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:22]: It's not gonna happen, which is, like, boo woo.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:25]: Like that sucks.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:25]: And you could win without having figured this shit out.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:28]: But oftentimes when you win big.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:31]: It's because it's so clear.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:33]: It's because that message is so compelling.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:35]: And, like, there is a way to kind of like, reverse engineer your way to this.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:38]: And so, like, again, I talked about, like, you have to think about, like, what is the founder story?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:42]: But you also have to think about, like, what does the market wanna hear?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:45]: Like I'm a big biopsy that call of nerd.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:47]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:47]: And so, like, you start with, like, what does the market's desire?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:49]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:50]: Like, what is it that they're trying to achieve?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:51]: This feels a little bit reminiscent of, like, the whole like story brand, like Hero's journey?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:55]: It's kind of, like, a shortened version, but it's like, what's the person actually trying to achieve?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:21:59]: Like, what's their desire?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:00]: What's blocking them?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:01]: What's the problem?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:02]: What's your unique insight as a company?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:04]: Like, what are you gonna share?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:05]: That's unique.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:06]: Like I remember when you said B2B companies should act with me companies.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:09]: I was like, shit.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:10]: That explains so much about why things don't work.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:14]: And Explain so much about what Drift doing and why did...

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:16]: I'm sorry for that, by the way.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:17]: I'm the reason that, like, every fucking Saas company has a podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:21]: I'm sorry about that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:22]: We don't...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:23]: Safe because like I'm sure I

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:25]: don't need that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:25]: I'm...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:26]: Those marketers are probably doing a better job because they're actually able to get the founder to talk and to share their genius in a format that it's probably hard to get out of them.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:22:35]: Most of the time was they're so freaking busy.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:37]: Alright.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:37]: So side note.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:38]: Usually, I have Slack open during these conversation because I have like, a podcast channel with my team and I'm like, I send a screenshots where I'm writing things you're saying because we're gonna come back to it from later.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:46]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:46]: I always get a comment from someone.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:48]: He's so distracted.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:49]: But Matt, Matt on my team, this must be because you're Canadian.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:53]: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:53]: He said, oh, dude she's awesome.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:55]: I listened to her on J Class podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:56]: I love that episode.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:57]: I regularly...

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:58]: This is noble bullshit.

Dave Gerhardt [0:22:59]: I regularly think back to her frameworks.

Dave Gerhardt [0:23:00]: He said if she hasn't already, you should ask about the chocolate covered almond analogy.

Dave Gerhardt [0:23:06]: So I don't even care if this is a complete break from what we're talking about.

Dave Gerhardt [0:23:09]: Can you please tell me what is the chocolate covered almond analogy?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:12]: So this is basically B2B company should act like media companies.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:15]: The idea is that, like, I feel like there's two types of content out there.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:19]: There is just plain snack kind of, like, pure entertainment, and there is, like, very, like, logical, dense value, like, in terms of, like, this is how you solve This problem specifically.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:31]: I think the.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:32]: When I tried to build with why we buy was a chocolate covered almond, which is something that was like, nutrient dense and all it's good for you.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:38]: You're not gonna feel that guilty buddy.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:40]: You get something valuable, but it's tasty It's fun and you crave it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:43]: And like, why I tried to make learning behavioral economics which is not the most sexy thing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:48]: Fun.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:49]: And, like, I turned it into a chocolate covered all.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:23:52]: And I feel like that's our job as marketers depending on what industry you're in There's no,

Dave Gerhardt [0:23:56]: that's a great shit.

Dave Gerhardt [0:23:56]: That act actually ended up being a great segue, like, what we were just talking about because you could be, like, back to that webinar example.

Dave Gerhardt [0:24:04]: Couldn't one of the ways you could create your own idea here.

Dave Gerhardt [0:24:06]: If you lean into the fact that, like, most webinars are boring.

Dave Gerhardt [0:24:10]: Most webinar software is boring.

Dave Gerhardt [0:24:12]: It's clunky, and so we just made a completely different fun a irr way of doing it and that's why we're different.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:19]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:19]: And that could be it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:20]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:20]: And you could talk with these little few features that you might have that you frame in a way that make them the fun webinar.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:26]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:27]: Like, this is, like, the way, like, Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:28]: It's like you turn it into your chocolate covered almond.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:30]: Ultimately, what you hit on there is that central argument, which is, like, most webinars are boring, but they shouldn't be because the best converting ones are actually fine.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:39]: And, like, that's an argument.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:40]: That's different.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:41]: That's unique.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:42]: Show me that in your marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:24:43]: Show me that in your call.

Dave Gerhardt [0:24:46]: I like these questions because I think it's, like, if you're listening to this, the goal is not to, like, instantly have one of these ideas, but almost like, there's like a worksheet here, which is, like, if you can't answer any of these questions, then you gotta go sit down and figure out your angle.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:00]: Because I actually think that's the most realistic outcome is a lot of times, people are like, well, we don't have any of these things.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:05]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:05]: Then we gotta go back to drawing board and be strategic.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:07]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:08]: Mh.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:08]: Mh.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:08]: But, I mean, I wanna ask you because, like, you've done this inside of multiple companies now.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:13]: So, like, let's look at drift as an example because, like, I think that so many of your listeners will understand that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:18]: Like, what was your process for pulling out of the team, what you needed to help them shape that joy that was so successful.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:26]: I had the best setup ever.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:27]: This is unfair.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:28]: I...

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:29]: David, who was the founder and CEO and my boss was like a super genius at marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:35]: That is a nice advantage.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:38]: And so everything I learned.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:38]: I learned from him.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:39]: Fact.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:40]: Fact.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:40]: You know, I've obviously, like, innovate, you know, taking some of that stuff, and it's shaped who I am, but he...

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:45]: And I think this is why it can't be fake.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:47]: He genuinely both of the founders, Dave and Elias were like, they didn't see the company.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:52]: To them, like the product roadmap and strategy was marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:25:57]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:25:58]: And any great founder, like, understands this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:01]: It's not a afterthought.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:02]: And so it was like, the product...

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:03]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:04]: They had a strong point of view on, like, the type of company that they wanted to create in a particular category, what they wanted to disrupt which brands they liked, how they wanted to do it, and I just got to be there and like, soak it all in and execute it.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:17]: And so my ultimate, like, meta lesson there is, like, I think the founder needs to have a strong point of view on marketing because marketing is not just promotion and, like, which ads are gonna run, like, Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:31]: Marketing is a fundamental piece of the Dna of a successful business.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:36]: Dave Kellogg at our event.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:38]: I wanna try to look this up really quick.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:41]: He had this quote from Peter Dr, quote, Peter Dr, quote about marketing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:45]: And I had never known that Peter...

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:47]: Do know this quote?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:26:49]: I know a budget of is.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:26:49]: But I know if this is marketing one.

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:51]: Business has only two basic functions marketing and innovation.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:26:55]: And he set that back then.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:26:56]: Like, how much more true is that...

Dave Gerhardt [0:26:57]: This was in nineteen fifty four, but he basically, I'll find the call later.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:01]: But the point is basically, like, marketing is literally everything the customer touches and sees.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:06]: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:06]: So if, you know, back then in the fifties That was different, But today that's your website, How people interact with your, you know, customer service team, how they show up in an event.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:14]: And I think those guys just believe in from the beginning.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:17]: And so I think the real thing is like, if you wanna compete and win and see marketing as an opportunity like play offense with your company, then it needs to be taken seriously at the founder level.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:26]: And then everything that I've learned from doing Exit Five and all my last companies as I realized is like, that's actually the that's the ninety nine percent of it.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:33]: All the other stuff that we argue about online about attribution and Sql and this and that and it's nonsense.

Dave Gerhardt [0:27:39]: It's all solved by like that, and that's why I'm really relating to this idea own idea.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:45]: I love this.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:46]: Like, I've been thinking at this post I wanna write about how You know how they say that people's dogs come to look like them.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:50]: Like, I think it, like.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:53]: Like, if you look at the most iconic companies in history.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:56]: I know you look at the founders.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:27:58]: Like, they're shattered of the founders.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:00]: Like, you look at job.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:01]: Like, you know, he was a calligraphy nerd and he bought very few things but when he did they were exceptionally beautiful.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:07]: And, like, you look at, like, Elon Musk.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:10]: Like, he's kind of a big child, and there's, like, a fart sound in the car, like he's like like.

Dave Gerhardt [0:28:16]: Absolutely.

Dave Gerhardt [0:28:16]: Look at Toby at Shopify is another good example.

Dave Gerhardt [0:28:19]: Like, I'd don't really have a design example of this, but just the way he writes.

Dave Gerhardt [0:28:22]: I feel like that has Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:28:23]: Found guys

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:26]: base camp.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:26]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:26]: Like, like, you can see the fingerprints of the founders all over it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:30]: And like, for your listeners who are at companies right now, like, if there's a founder that doesn't want to...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:35]: That doesn't have big thinking on the prop the space that they're in.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:39]: Like, that's like a...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:40]: You should run kind scenario.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:41]: And I don't hate to say that because, like, but the reality is, like, you gotta have strong opinions on why you're doing what you're doing and how it's why now and why you and they get that's not there and that's not clear and it's not coming from the top, marketing can't fix that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:28:57]: Marketing can extract that when it's unclear because it's often unclear.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:02]: Yes.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:02]: That's the most realistic, like, action item from this conversation, like, Maybe there are founders that are listening okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:09]: I gotta go work on that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:10]: I sharpen that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:11]: If it's not you, you, you know, you talk about how the marketing team's job should be to get it out of them.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:16]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:29:16]: Is that one of the takeaways here, Like, if I'm listening this and I'm a marketer.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:19]: Hundred percent.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:20]: And the marketing shop is to take it out because here's the other thing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:22]: And I'm sure we've all experienced this in our own life.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:24]: I am a huge believer in what I call the experts paradox, which is this idea that, like, when you are too close to your own thinking, it doesn't feel that novel or interesting to you.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:33]: And therefore, you might have, like, this brilliance in you, and you don't even think to share it because it's just so commonplace.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:38]: So you've got these founders.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:40]: Like, if they're not spout off wisdom all of the time.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:43]: It's not because it's not there.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:45]: It's but it's not being mined properly, and they don't actually see it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:48]: Like, it's like, what is this saying?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:50]: The Cobb son has no shoes.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:52]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:52]: Like, like, we just don't see our own brilliance in a way that allows us to capture it well.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:29:58]: And that's why having a team, and a marketer who can actually go in and kind of extract that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:02]: Like I remember when you were doing drift, you had the podcast with Dave, and you would just go and, like, pull good stuff out to him all long.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:10]: Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:11]: I think he probably wouldn't think to share because for him and he's like, oh, doesn't everybody do it this way?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:15]: No.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:15]: You're effing genius, like not a big food it that way.

Dave Gerhardt [0:30:19]: Well, also, I think just, like, anything that seems obvious to use is.

Dave Gerhardt [0:30:22]: Usually, nobody else has the guts to say it or share it.

Dave Gerhardt [0:30:27]: And so so sure, might be obvious like you read that book, But, like, you know, you're the only one talking about it...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:31]: Mh.

Dave Gerhardt [0:30:34]: What else?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:35]: So, I mean, I think that when it comes down to this stuff at the end of the day, like, my belief is that we have to be very deliberate as you believe, Like, you've been very deliberate with the space you wanna own in the minds of your target audience.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:47]: And I think now with, like, Ai generated content, like, there's always a lot of noise.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:51]: Like, it's just exponential noise now.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:53]: And so I think it takes guts to say, like, this is the thing we wanna own.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:57]: And most teams don't wanna say that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:30:59]: Is it's scary and they'd rather change in every couple of months and they'd rather, like, you know, like, oh, like, this competitor to this.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:05]: So we're gonna make this slight adjustment, but it's, like, you really need to have the conviction to say, like, we believe in this, and we're gonna go deep in this.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:12]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:12]: We're gonna listen to the market.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:13]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:13]: If it's not working.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:14]: We're gonna be it changing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:15]: But like, let it have a chance to work too, which I think a lot of leaders don't give marketers the chance to do.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:22]: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:22]: That's a good piece of advice because it's hard because it's not always obvious.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:25]: And so it's not, like, Eureka, we got this.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:28]: This is the name.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:29]: This is the idea.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:30]: You kinda have to feel, like, pretty strong about it, then you have to go out there and kinda test it in different ways.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:35]: But I think you have to...

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:36]: In the drift examples like, we were testing messages, but the core idea was never gonna change.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:41]: I think today, too many companies can become guilty of just, like, too quickly changing the whole thing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:31:47]: It's up, you know?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:49]: I did when I was building my tech company.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:50]: Pivoting was, like, celebrated?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:51]: Like, I remember telling bullets.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:31:53]: I was, well, you know, that, like, Instagram started as, like, a gaming thing, like, It was just, like, it was so easy to go, like, oh, this isn't working right away, and I understand that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:00]: Because, like, when you have a limited runway or, like, in my case, like...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:04]: When we were starting, like, I was paying my Dev Team out to my own pocket.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:07]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:07]: You need shit to work.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:08]: And, like, that's a lot of pressure that founders are under, and therefore, their teams are under a lot of pressure too.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:13]: But at the same time, nothing will ever work if you keep jumping.

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:18]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:18]: So we want people to think about this own idea.

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:22]: Is there a resource to anybody?

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:25]: If I wanna go work on this?

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:26]: If I wanna, like, give, like, a mad lips or something?

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:28]: Like, how can I go sit down and dedicate?

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:30]: Do I just go for a walk in the forest and think about what my own ideas is, how can I make this happen?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:36]: So you could read our newsletter.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:37]: Because, like, in the newsletter, like, we're breaking down all the time.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:40]: Like, we're sharing the different components.

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:41]: Yeah What is it?

Dave Gerhardt [0:32:42]: How does somebody get it?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:43]: So it's beunignorable.com.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:46]: You go to beunignorable.com, and you'll be on the sign up page for the newsletter.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:49]: At this stage, that's what exists because like we're in the weeds kind of like, doing the work with clients and so we're not actually...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:54]: There's not...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:56]: I'm not teaching all the methodology because I'm figuring it out as we go.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:32:59]: And this is a reality too that I think a lot of people are afraid to say.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:02]: It's like, there are answers that I don't have yet because it's gonna take a number of reps for me to be able to see yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:08]: I can tell you that's the way to do it because I've done it a few times and that's come out it that way.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:11]: So, like, right now, I'm very much like that, like, Honeymoon phase.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:14]: Of, like, I've I figured this out, like, for five clients.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:16]: I helped them find it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:17]: It wasn't repeatable until the last one.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:19]: And I'm hoping that I'm gonna go into this and make it repeatable again.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:22]: So I can't tell you what exactly the process looks like.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:24]: What I can tell you is think about any company that has been a breakthrough success.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:30]: Think of about any individual thought leader that you aspire to be like, and you can see that they have one.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:36]: And if that's, like reality is like, you're, like, these people have these own ideas.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:40]: It's clear to me what they're about, then you should probably take it seriously yourself.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:33:44]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:45]: Like that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:45]: Okay.

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:46]: You as a creator as somebody trying to...

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:48]: I'm now you're more folks on the client side so maybe your newsletters and as big a deal, but you spend time on x.

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:54]: You spend time on Linkedin.

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:55]: I've seen you on podcasts and videos.

Dave Gerhardt [0:33:56]: What's working for you right now and how are you spending your time when it comes to social media?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:02]: Good question.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:02]: I would say what's working for me is, like, finding this way of saying the same thing a thousand times because that's how it moves.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:08]: And so for me, it's like, now that I know what my own idea is Right?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:12]: I know, like, what my central argument is, and I'm really clear on that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:15]: It's, like, I built this in which could be helpful for some of your listeners.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:18]: Because we're always told, like, say the same thing a thousand times.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:20]: But how do you do that?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:21]: For me, I...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:22]: Like, there's this thing called the authority flywheel, which is basically if you talk about the problem that you're solving You share your point of view on the problem.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:30]: You share the big promise that people are gonna get from working with you from using your software, and you share the proof and you do that consistently, and it's all wrapped on your own idea that allows you to kinda get traction and that allows you to kind of really start building momentum.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:43]: And so for me, what's been working is just that.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:46]: Like, I create all my content, I know what my center is.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:49]: And because I'm clear on my center, everything else just is more impactful.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:34:53]: And so I'd say that finding that center and committing to it is what's working for me?

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:00]: I like that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:01]: Do you have a goal you try to publish a certain amount of time post per week?

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:04]: Or are you just, like, creating when something comes to you?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:07]: So I have, like, I bet like, a Don't know how you do your creative I feel like everybody wants there to be this like, incredible system that's so easy for me.

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:15]: Well, you almost have a hundred thousand followers on Linkedin, and someone once told me if you have a hundred thousand followers on Linkedin, you might as well be mister B.

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:21]: So, like, they basically made it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:24]: Well, you have have many.

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:26]: Oh, I don't know.

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:27]: Like, hundred and ninety seven thousand something.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:30]: So you were like,

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:32]: Who's counting.

Dave Gerhardt [0:35:32]: Yeah.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:33]: But, like, for Bi, like, when an idea comes to me.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:35]: I go for walk every morning, I think I use that time to think as opposed to, like, always consume.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:40]: And I have a cloud project where I use, like, to help me c create and, like, create content.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:46]: And I, like, just drop the idea, and then I'm like, this is what I'm thinking.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:49]: This is, like, the angle and I use those four lenses Of, like, okay.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:53]: This is a problem post.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:54]: I just, like, saw somebody post with.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:56]: I wanna share my point of view on it.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:35:57]: And it's not this big system thing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:00]: I remember was chatting with Saw hill blooms Coo and like, I was like, tell me about, like, the back end system?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:05]: Like, how are you guys doing kinda how do you play and he's, like, he just writes to do thinks about that day.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:10]: And, like, nobody wants to admit that a lot more of that happens then that we'd want there to be this like, brilliant system.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:16]: But oftentimes, it's, like, when it comes to true thought leadership stuff, and it's, like, this is my thinking.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:21]: It comes to you in the moment, you just, like, share it because you're...

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:25]: Which is, like, that's the whole thing going back to this own idea thing.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:27]: That was also a key thing from, like, the drift stage.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:30]: I think so much of those good messaging and positioning ideas.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:35]: They didn't come like, Katelyn and I weren't, like, meeting and having, like, a brainstorm session.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:40]: It just was, like, you talk about it at work, and then you just go away, and then you're on a walk in the woods and like, bam, oh, it hits you.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:46]: Like, you have to, you know, we have to remember this is a creative pursuit.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:50]: I think you have to give yourself space for that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:52]: So it's nice to hear nice to hear.

Dave Gerhardt [0:36:54]: I'm not alone there.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:55]: I think, like, and I supposed to us today.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:36:57]: Like I was just thinking about Andrew chance, like, love of shitty click.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:00]: Like, the one thing I keep thinking.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:01]: I wanna share this your audience.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:02]: I feel like they're probably at the stage where I am.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:04]: Like, I've am feeling overwhelmed by all the change from Ai.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:07]: And the thing that I keep going back to is that, like, I fundamentally believe, and maybe this is just, like, confirmation bias us.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:14]: But, like, I fundamentally believe, that marketing is gonna be even more important in these coming years and that the marketers that, like, really, like, just commit and like dive in.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:24]: Like, because things are gonna speed up so quickly.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:27]: Like, the things that work, the law should be clicker through, like, this right which something stops working is gonna be so much faster.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:32]: That's what that means.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:33]: It means that the creative people get to set what the next thing is.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:37]: And the next thing and the next thing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:38]: So we're still gonna be important.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:39]: We're not.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:40]: We're not all gonna be somebody's mac mini that they're running open claw on and their whole marketing team is, like, fired.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:47]: I really think that marketers have a huge opportunity to win in this future and that this is our time, really?

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:55]: I think there was a long time at tech.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:57]: You worked in tech for a long time.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:37:58]: I had worked in tech like, for a long time.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:00]: I think that there was a long time where marketers.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:02]: For like the second class citizen, and everyone just thought you just layered it on, if you actually had to do marketing, your company was doing something wrong.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:09]: Like, there was very much a stigma around marketing.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:12]: I think that now we're gonna be the MVP.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:14]: And that the companies that see that are gonna win and the companies that don't aren't.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:19]: And so, like, yay for us.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:21]: Well that's good because my whole entire Youtube feed is how everybody replaced their marketing team with client codes.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:27]: So I I hope you're right.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:30]: Alright Caitlyn.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:30]: Trying to wake up the ad revenue.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:32]: Right?

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:33]: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:33]: Fair.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:33]: Also fair.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:34]: What Nas said it's a dirty game is any man worthy of fame, I guess.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:38:39]: There you go.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:41]: Anyways, it's great to have you on.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:42]: Thank you for coming and sharing this Caitlyn Burg going check out.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:44]: She's on Linkedin, check out her newsletter, send her a message and be like, yeah, I need some help thinking about my my own idea, how does this sound?

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:53]: And I love it.

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:54]: It makes me think like, what is the...

Dave Gerhardt [0:38:55]: You know, I think sometimes I get too caught up and Am I using this positioning framework first this, and this and it is, like the concept of an honorable ideas is good and bring me back to the no forms roots.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:06]: So great to see you Thanks for coming

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:39:09]: Day.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:10]: Hopefully, first of more conversations in...

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:39:12]: Absolutely.

Katelyn Bourgoin [0:39:12]: Thank you

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:17]: Hey.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:17]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:19]: If you like this episode.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:20]: You know what?

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:21]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:25]: I have something better for you.

Dave Gerhardt [0:39:27]: So We've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five, and you can go and check that out instead of leaving a rating a review, go check it out right now on our website exitfive.com.

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